I do find Paul's writing quite beautiful...I don't know too much about how he's interpretted by the church though. It is pretty nuts that so many of his letters have been canonized in the bible, as just one author! (although I think not everything was written by him directly, some is "inspired" by him but written by others. Not sure how that works though.)
Cheers, will give it a read. I’ve been thinking about Christianity for a while now. I’ve grown up Muslim and even though I agree with the religion, I don’t think my personality matches with it. I’m a very high iq person, and I tend to find the costly signalling associated with Islam too much of a time sink among other things. I understand its value for the average person who likely isn’t doing much in their free time ( and likely will need it, with the coming of AI and social media addiction etc.), but I tend to find it extremely restrictive, and time wise expensive. Also the strict rules around praying make it difficult to have a “high iq” relationship with god. The only thing that’s been holding me back from Christianity is my lack of understanding of the trinity, and that the modern day version of Christianity seems closer to salve morality (a la Nietzsche’s prescription)
There is a book called "The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church", by Professor S G F Brandon, which is an absolute knock-out on this area. It is very academic, with quotes in Hebrew and Greek and so on, and uses evidence from within the New Testament itself to demonstrate the bitter squabbles actually taking place between Paul, with his mystic vision and interpretation, and the original disciples of Jesus, who actually knew the man. It was more or less the genius of the author of the Gospel attributed to St Luke which kind of whitewashed over this whole conflict to try and bring together what were seen as the "most important" or "to-be-orthodox" strands of the struggling new religion of Christianity to give it a founding narrative and bind the followers together rather than perpetuating their struggles and breaking it apart. It's not easy to find these days, but a terrific and fascinating book.
I don't think he'd agree that they just "whitewash" over the conflict. I think he'd say that the tensions were necessary, but to be theolgoically understandable one has to be careful how they're presented to people. I'd doing bad job explaining it, read it !
Well, to engage with that would be to have to find it acceptable to engage with an entire worldview originating in more naive and superstitious times. It doesn’t get off the ground if you don’t take seriously the idea that there are actual “gifts” by an actual “Holy Spirit”; or if you do take seriously the idea that human nature and psychology don’t change all that much, and that mystical experiences happen to people in all cultures and all generations, and that they are invariably filtered through (a) what you’ve been obsessed with recently (in Paul’s case, Jesus), and (b) the psychology of your own personal background and hang-ups (in Paul’s case, his own wrestling, possibly over years, with the conflicts between the demands of the Jewish Law and his own personal contacts with e.g. hypocrisy, and his own yearning for personal authority). On top of that there are struggles for authority and dominance within rival Christian communities (typical human nature again) - whether followers of Peter or Mary or Thomas or James or whomever - and resentment of Paul’s energy, influence and the power of his own interpretation of his experience. That is all explicable in terms of human psychology, especially by reference to vulnerable new cults - which Christianity once was, having to be propagandistic and persuasive to establish its place in the world. It’s nothing to do with any attempt at a more sophisticated explanation of the existence of consciousness in the universe, one which takes little notice of “holy books” and “doctrine” or “theology”, but which might speculate that cognition exists down in leaves and insects and even patterns currently beyond our understanding, or that it might have zero connection with morality or commandments but plenty of connection with predator as well as prey, or with black holes and cosmic attractors and quantum effects. Established religious interpretations seem just child’s play compared to that kind of thing. But they are what ordinary humans can cope with in their quest for meaning. (They still have meaning, but it is perhaps stranger than they can comprehend, and nothing to do with e.g. “life after death” or concepts like “salvation”. You are “saved” on a human level by being grateful for existence and understanding that it is better than non-being, not by being one of one of the many groups which think they are the “correct” church.)
I do find Paul's writing quite beautiful...I don't know too much about how he's interpretted by the church though. It is pretty nuts that so many of his letters have been canonized in the bible, as just one author! (although I think not everything was written by him directly, some is "inspired" by him but written by others. Not sure how that works though.)
Wow what a read. Are there any more resources of a pre-Pauline Christianity?
The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels is a good resource.
Cheers, will give it a read. I’ve been thinking about Christianity for a while now. I’ve grown up Muslim and even though I agree with the religion, I don’t think my personality matches with it. I’m a very high iq person, and I tend to find the costly signalling associated with Islam too much of a time sink among other things. I understand its value for the average person who likely isn’t doing much in their free time ( and likely will need it, with the coming of AI and social media addiction etc.), but I tend to find it extremely restrictive, and time wise expensive. Also the strict rules around praying make it difficult to have a “high iq” relationship with god. The only thing that’s been holding me back from Christianity is my lack of understanding of the trinity, and that the modern day version of Christianity seems closer to salve morality (a la Nietzsche’s prescription)
Good luck in your journey! Would you say more about costly signalling in islam? Very interesting
On the Trinity, Jim Filler on relational metaphysics helped me a lot. 12 minutes in here: https://youtu.be/lFp06wStZs4?si=
There is a book called "The Fall of Jerusalem and the Christian Church", by Professor S G F Brandon, which is an absolute knock-out on this area. It is very academic, with quotes in Hebrew and Greek and so on, and uses evidence from within the New Testament itself to demonstrate the bitter squabbles actually taking place between Paul, with his mystic vision and interpretation, and the original disciples of Jesus, who actually knew the man. It was more or less the genius of the author of the Gospel attributed to St Luke which kind of whitewashed over this whole conflict to try and bring together what were seen as the "most important" or "to-be-orthodox" strands of the struggling new religion of Christianity to give it a founding narrative and bind the followers together rather than perpetuating their struggles and breaking it apart. It's not easy to find these days, but a terrific and fascinating book.
That's an interesting perspective. As a counterpoint, check out this essay by Cormac Jones from the symbolic world: https://cormacjones.substack.com/p/how-the-gifts-of-the-spirit-sometimes
I don't think he'd agree that they just "whitewash" over the conflict. I think he'd say that the tensions were necessary, but to be theolgoically understandable one has to be careful how they're presented to people. I'd doing bad job explaining it, read it !
Well, to engage with that would be to have to find it acceptable to engage with an entire worldview originating in more naive and superstitious times. It doesn’t get off the ground if you don’t take seriously the idea that there are actual “gifts” by an actual “Holy Spirit”; or if you do take seriously the idea that human nature and psychology don’t change all that much, and that mystical experiences happen to people in all cultures and all generations, and that they are invariably filtered through (a) what you’ve been obsessed with recently (in Paul’s case, Jesus), and (b) the psychology of your own personal background and hang-ups (in Paul’s case, his own wrestling, possibly over years, with the conflicts between the demands of the Jewish Law and his own personal contacts with e.g. hypocrisy, and his own yearning for personal authority). On top of that there are struggles for authority and dominance within rival Christian communities (typical human nature again) - whether followers of Peter or Mary or Thomas or James or whomever - and resentment of Paul’s energy, influence and the power of his own interpretation of his experience. That is all explicable in terms of human psychology, especially by reference to vulnerable new cults - which Christianity once was, having to be propagandistic and persuasive to establish its place in the world. It’s nothing to do with any attempt at a more sophisticated explanation of the existence of consciousness in the universe, one which takes little notice of “holy books” and “doctrine” or “theology”, but which might speculate that cognition exists down in leaves and insects and even patterns currently beyond our understanding, or that it might have zero connection with morality or commandments but plenty of connection with predator as well as prey, or with black holes and cosmic attractors and quantum effects. Established religious interpretations seem just child’s play compared to that kind of thing. But they are what ordinary humans can cope with in their quest for meaning. (They still have meaning, but it is perhaps stranger than they can comprehend, and nothing to do with e.g. “life after death” or concepts like “salvation”. You are “saved” on a human level by being grateful for existence and understanding that it is better than non-being, not by being one of one of the many groups which think they are the “correct” church.)
Thanks! I’ll have to look for that.
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